ABS Tour to Gambia - January 2012?

[Peter]

During the annual general meeting, it was proposed to schedule field meetings well in advance and organize the publication of a year's meetings by September. To this end we are due a special committee meeting to plan for this and one or two other items. Which leads me to asking members the following:

After the success of 2010 tour to Morocco, I wondered if members might be interested in principle to a mid-winter break in Gambia, birding and pleasure? Depending on the response to this, I can investigate costs etc. I have now led 2 tours to Gambia and have sufficient experience to organize guiding, transport and accommodation, so it would be an excellent tour. Please post here if you think you might be interested.

Thanks, Peter

[Stephen]

Much as I enjoy travelling to Morocco, as I also did with my fellow ABS members a few years ago, I always have the feeling that the people of such countries carry a great burden, being unable to have free speech, or even control in their own destinies. I've also visited the Gambia and of course saw some great birds, but the fear and oppression of the people this country left me with great sadness and I won't return until President Jammeh of the Gambia no longer controls the country with his so called 'iron fist'. You can look at Amnesty Internatioanls pages for more details which are really quite shocking or go to the BBC's pages for a general country overview.
The bottom line is that I personally feel that the ABS should be promoting the great birding sites of Andalucia and spreading the word about what we do here rather than going on holiday and in effect supporting a dictatorial tyrant.
I'd be happy to hear other members comments.

Warmest regards,

Stephen Daly

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/country_profiles/1032156.stm

[Peter]

For me its a very sad day if we can't indulge a willingness to share an experience or two together without thinking of one particular political view or another. I will continue to go to countries like Morocco and mix with and help those people who most need it, simply objecting to the leader of a country is not a good enough reason for me to turn my back on and abandon support for the people who are in most need. I am helping with an education project for children in Morocco and also assisting a Women's cooperative there, so using your logic Stephen, I'd ignore the needs and economic support of these ordinary people because of the leader of that country. Sorry but if everyone held your view, then the very people who need your help will suffer the most. I don't imagine for one moment your view will affect the leadership of these countries one little bit.

Peter

[Stephen]

Here we have two very different viewpoints Peter which is fine by me. That's democracy.
You seem to have missed a couple of points that I made and went off defending the Moroccan projects in the south. But hold on, The Gambia and Morocco are two quite different stories. Let's leave Morocco out of this discussion as I was talking about specifically the Gambia. What I wrote about in my first post was about the current situation in the Gambia This information is based on fact - click on the link.
The other point I was trying to make and one that's probably more important than my own personal view of helping President Jemmeh, was why are you not offering an ABS tour here in Andalucia or at least somewhere on the Iberian peninsular. As it says on the ABS website :
'The Society is dedicated to extending the knowledge of bird life in Andalucia and involving its members in the quest for this knowledge.'
If you wish to attract more members then there should be a concerted effort to attract people here and share the Andalucian Experience

[Peter]

Much as I enjoy travelling to Morocco, as I also did with my fellow ABS members a few years ago, I always have the feeling that the people of such countries carry a great burden, being unable to have free speech, or even control in their own destinies.

[Toots]

There are really two questions here. One is whether tourists in general ought to visit countries with corrupt, oppressive regimes. Well, I gave it some thought and my strong feeling is that tourism, slowly but surely, opens-up these countries and brings their immoral leadership more-into public awareness, which may ultimately improve the lot of the people.  I have no wish to enter into a great argument to support this view, it's just my feeling.

The other, and main question is whether ABS should visit places other than Andalucia.  I think that the ABS, as a group of people with a like interest, ought to be able to go wherever they please.  It is understood within the group that Andalucia is our home patch and that birding within said patch is our priority. This is fully demonstrated to the birding community by our web site and the monthly field visits.  I see no need to further endorse our allegiance by proclaiming anywhere else 'off-limits'.

My own purely personal preference, however, would be for a tour within Spain. This is partly from the cost aspect, and partly my wish to see more of 'natural Spain'. But I wouldn't want to rule out other destinations, as an edict in general.

Ellie

[Derek]

Its been awhile since posting on these fine boards of the ABS Forum, but I do cast an eye on the posts here and follow the progress of the society with keen interest. So be careful I am watching you!

I think it does those persons responsible for promoting the society and the aims of the society a massive disservice to imply they are not doing enough and should do more to beat the drum of birds and birding in Andalusia. Just because a member suggests a journey overseas to see different birds, surely doesn’t mean that person or by association, the society is not doing enough or lessening their efforts on behalf of ABS or Andalusia, does it?

We all, I assume, love birds and going out watching birds? I come to Spain most years and enjoy your great hospitality and most of all the different birds I get to see, many of which are either rare or completely absent from the UK. So going to Gambia would be a definite yes for me! Another thing is, when I travel abroad I know I help local people by putting money directly into their hands, not in the hands of the government. Bit like sanctions, who suffers first and most from such actions? You know it will be the poorest of the people and I’m not beating that particular drum.

Its all about personal opinions and for what that’s worth, the above is mine.

Keep up the good work ABS.

Derek

[Stephen]

Hi Ellie and Derek, Thank you for sharing on your additional comments about your own personal opinions on travel destinations.
Stephen

[Steve25]

As most ABS members either live here or visit regularly we already have plenty of opportunities to enjoy the birds of Andalucia, so why not widen our birding horizons with foreign trips?

My only reservation about the Gambia would be cost rather than socio-political considerations.  While I admire Stephen´s pricipals I tend to agree with Ellie and Derek, tourism focuses attention on tyrannical behaviour and therefore mitigates it. The most extreme tyrants can only get away with it indefinitely in isolated countries like N. Korea, Albania, Rumania, Myanmar, Haiti, and others which are or were testimony to that.

I was rather hoping for Morocco as mentioned at the AGM, but I guess that´s a non starter as it´s already been done?

A different Stephen

[Peter]

Thank you Ellie, Derek and Steve for your support. Steve, we might well arrange something for Morocco in the future.

I was happy to leave this post and had no wish to continue with my reasons why people should visit Gambia. However, I had a couple of emails from interested parties who were not altogether happy with remarks on here.

1. Email from The West African Bird Study Association (WABSA)

Abridged version:

Dear Peter, I can assure you that The Gambia is peaceful Country and good in Birdlife and lots to see. Everything shall not be ok at both sides, but regarding to Tourism,The smilling Coast of The Gambia is fantastic.I would be very much grateful if you can convince your members to visit The Gambia just once and they learn by themselves. Hope to hear from you soon. WABSA.

2. Email ex colleague member of the African Bird Club (ABC )

Abridges version:

Dear Peter, I see absolutely no reason for letting political views potentially harm those who reply on tourism as their only means of income. Gambia is a safe and bird rich destination. Many bird societies and travel groups visit the country and many also financially support a growing awareness in various conservation projects, something that would not happen if bird clubs and birdwatchers stayed away.

Your members might also be interested in a few of these projects and I give a link to a summary produced by the African Bird Club: http://www.africanbirdclub.org/countries/Gambia/conservation.html

I hope your members will decide to visit Gambia enjoying its rich and varied birdlife, helping those people struggling to improve and conserve the nature of this country.

_______________________

Sorry for prolonging this topic, but felt obliged to reproduce feedback I had received from those with more experience of the situation in Gambia.

Peter

[Barrie]

As most ABS members either live here or visit regularly we already have plenty of opportunities to enjoy the birds of Andalucia, so why not widen our birding horizons with foreign trips?

Most maybe but certainly not all.

I would expect, as was seen with the last Morocco trip, that the number of people going on such foreign trips to be much less than go to the ABS Field Outings in Andalucá. A possible reason for this might be cost (and once you get to my age, medical insurance costs rocket!)

I have no objection to those members who want to do so, going on such overseas trips but I would make a strong plea that such trips are IN ADDITION to the normal monthly ABS Outings, not in place of them.

There are a huge number of wonderful places to see in Andalucía. It was to see *those* that I joined the ABS.

Barrie

[Peter]

The ‘suggestion’ of Gambia was no more than that Barrie, a brief foray to distant shores to perhaps experience something different with likeminded people. Of course the idea was attacked and put down in some serious fashion! To a point actually where I will not be suggesting anything else like this to members again.

It was never my intention that any trip outside of the province would replace or be instead of our normal monthly meetings. Just thought the idea, whilst I agree about the costs, was a fun thing, but for me at any rate it all got very ugly!

So being made all too aware you can’t please all the people all of the time, or at least politically, I will in future focus only on Andalucia.

Peter

[Barrie]

The ‘suggestion’ of Gambia was no more than that Barrie, a brief foray to distant shores to perhaps experience something different with likeminded people. Of course the idea was attacked and put down in some serious fashion! To a point actually where I will not be suggesting anything else like this to members again.

It was never my intention that any trip outside of the province would replace or be instead of our normal monthly meetings. Just thought the idea, whilst I agree about the costs, was a fun thing, but for me at any rate it all got very ugly!

So being made all too aware you can’t please all the people all of the time, or at least politically, I will in future focus only on Andalucia.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I certainly don't think you should be afraid to propose trips outside Andalucía for members who are interested.

I was not trying to attack the idea, simply expressing my hope that it would not mean less ABS Field Outings in Andalucia and you have assured me it will not.

Maybe I ought to have picked that up before, but unfortunatgely I hadn't. Sorry.

Don't give up just because one or two disagreed with you. Ths silent majority did not.

Barrie

[Peter]

Hi Barrie,

I know you were not attacking the idea, that had appeared before your post. Had I been just an ordinary member, then I would not be put off by negatives, but maybe these ideas are better coming from others.

Thanks for the support and due to discuss the 'proper' field meetings tomorrow. Hopefully we can post some of the future meetings here by Sunday (I'm working, so relying on Bob and or others to post them).

Peter